Ultrasound Daily Digest Tue, 6 Apr 1993 Volume 3 : Issue 6 Today's Topics: [GUS] and MS-DOS 6 A few good .MIDs comanche & thrustmaster fcs deep house time DIGEST ADMIN: Test and update Dolby Surround! GUS FUTURE RELEASE LIST - BS?? Misc GUS thoughts (2 msgs) Progman & Setup in Windows SBF2.ZIP - Soundblaster programming info (C src included) SBOS and LINKS386 Ultima 7 Part 2 and GUS setup ultima ;7 stutter Ultrasound Daily Digest V3 #5 (2 msgs) Ultrasound FTP Sites - New files validated - Apr 3, 93 Information about the UltraSound Daily Digest (such as mail addresses, request servers, ftp sites, etc., etc.) can be found at the end of the Digest. *** HEY!!! *** Before you ask a question, *** READ THE FAQ ***. It's available on the request server and the ftp sites, or check the newsgroup archives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 10:17:36 GMT From: ptran@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Phat H Tran) Subject: [GUS] and MS-DOS 6 Message-ID: ReprintFrom: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard Just in case any GUS owner is apprehensive about upgrading to DOS 6: I've just installed MS-DOS 6 on my machine, with disk compression, and my GUS and its support drivers and utilities all still function as they have before. Zone66 also works, despite the warning about disk compression (Stacker) in its readme. With DOS6's disk compression, I now have almost 100 megs free for games, .mids, and .mods, whereas I had just 10 megs free before. My overall compression ratio is 1.6 to 1.0. Another much-needed feature is DOS6's convenient and powerful implementation of multiple boot configurations. I haven't come across a better multi-boot system. I haven't yet installed DOS6's anti-viral, backup, and undelete utilities, but I don't see why they should pose a problem for the GUS drivers. Though all of DOS6's new features can be found earlier in third party software, they are now all integrated into the OS instead of dangling like appendages. I think that that's the most attractive feature of the new DOS. Phat. BTW, I saw the patches for Ultima 7 parts 1 and 2 to make the game work with SBOS on Epas. At least Origin is acknowledging the GUS' existence, and is working to make their games compatible with the card. I guess we should not be worried about whether or not Strike Commanger will work with the GUS. Let's hope Origin make the move to support the GUS in its native mode soon. I wonder how much leverage EA, a GUS backer, has over its subsidiaries. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 20:21:40 -0700 From: Eric N. Liao Subject: A few good .MIDs Message-ID: <199304060321.AA17595@aerospace.aero.org> Anyone know where I can get some good MIDI files (in terms of ftp sites.) Or are all of the good ones (general midi) locked up with copyrights, and only available when purchased? I have tried the gusmid1m.zip (midi demo), and I must say the best one (in my opinion) is striving.mid. I tried it with and without vmap. I like the one with vmap. Is this correct? I'm assuming the file wasn't already adjusted for a logarithmic volume scale. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 10:35:43 -0700 From: paladin@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Robin Yang) Subject: comanche & thrustmaster fcs Message-ID: <9304051735.AA03832@ucscb.UCSC.EDU> I'm experiencing some difficulties with this combination. My GUS is set at default settings. A clean boot from floppy (no config.sys, no autoexec.bat) then load sbos then run comanche. If I use novalogic's soundset to change the settings, the net result is this: set soundblaster irq to 5, get no digital sound and the joystick functions perfectly. set soundblaster irq to 7, get digital sound and the joystick doesn't work well. On the thrustmaster the "hat" switch lets you control which direction you look out of the cockpit. With digital sound the default view is to the left and no matter which view I select it always returns to view left. Proper operation keeps the view at whatever the user last selected. This problem exists regardless of whether I use the GUS's joystick port or the stock computer's port. On a (perhaps) unrelated note, I recently used joycomp to calibrate my joystick on a 486/33. As suggested I added a line to my autoexec.bat--ultrajoy 16. I noticed an unacceptable slowdown while playing wing commander so I took out the line but the "slowdown" is still evident when playing wing. Is there another step needed to remove the speed compensation? I don't know if this is related to the problems with comanche, but... Thanks for your help in this matter. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1993 01:54:33 -0500 (EDT) From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion) Subject: deep house time Message-ID: <9304060554.AA15159@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> I dont know if people have noticed, but the second organ patch (percussive organ) is the same (exact) patch as used in a lot of deep house these days. Kind of like the "Inner" of the nineties. (The Inner is the strange piano sound that Inner City were famous for... remember "Good life"?). The interes- ting range of the instrument is octave 3 and below. Several interestiung percussions too to go with that. Anybody is doing something in that genre? Also, another really interesting sound is FX5 (brightness) in octave 1. BTW, even if the format is 1.10, not much has changed. One thing i have noticed is that the frequency table has changed, or they use totally weird root notes (example: polysyn.pat). Also, my program list correctly all info in the patch, so the person who was asking about the patch info a week ago, my info is still valid. You can email me for more information (as i have already told you anyway...) Last, there is a program called noise master that could be a very good start for a window sample editor for the GUS. combined with wavpat, implementing all the options and better cue points and voila! At par with samplevision! The only problem is that the people that do noisemaster are in Holland, without email address. BTW, i will put it on epas just after i send the message. Ciao, -- Francois Dion ' _ _ _ CISM (_) (_) _) FM Montreal , Canada Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA (_) / . _) 10000 Watts Telephone no: (514) 343-7511 _______________________________________________________________________________ Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 15:12:09 MDT From: ddebry@itchy (Dave DeBry) Subject: DIGEST ADMIN: Test and update Message-ID: <9304052112.AA06258@itchy> For some reason, putting in that little bit o' code that uploads the digest to archive.epas every night created more bugs than you could shake a stick at. Believe me, I tried shaking a stick at all of them, but it got boring so I just fixed them all. Hopefully, anyway. ;-) So, this is a test to make sure posting to the digest still works. I've tested the FTP code, it's fine now. (Sheesh: One extra dollar sign in a shell script can ruin your entire weekend.) The only bug I'm still worried about is the one I can't find... for some weird reason, mailserv (the pseudo-user who owns all my list stuff) doesn't get its cron jobs run. Why I'm telling all the readers out in NetLand this is unknown. In any case, if you get this digest a few hours late, now you know why. ONE OTHER IMPORTANT THING: Please wait at least 48 hours before complaining about lack of digests. Chances are that I've seen the problem already and I'm working on it, and I don't need to be flooded with mail reminding me of the fact. (I get WAY too much mail already.) Thanks, folks! -- Dave ddebry@ debry@ \ DeBry dsd. peruvian. | "They sent the chicken bone to a lab. It es. cs.utah. | came back 'chicken bone'." com edu / ------------------------------ Date: 05 Apr 93 22:26 GMT From: ELSEWARE@AppleLink.Apple.COM (ElseWare Corp, B Bauermeister,PAS) Subject: Dolby Surround! Message-ID: <734054233.9117177@AppleLink.Apple.COM> Attn: ultrasound digest SentBy: Don Date 4/5/93 Subject Dolby Surround! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 08:33:06 EST From: Matthew Spewak Subject: GUS FUTURE RELEASE LIST - BS?? Message-ID: <930405.083306.8512@walnut.prs.k12.nj.us> This is getting realy annoying. To the poster of the FUTURE GUS RELEASE list... How and where did you get your information from. So far, all of the games on the list that have been recently released do NOT support GUS. Trump Castle 3, Lemmings 2, Harrier Jump Jet, and now Ultrabots, by Novalogic! As soon as Ultrabots came out, I grabbed it, thinking it would support GUS as the article said. But it only supports soundblaster and sounds TERRIBLE with SBOS v. 2.04. So I returned it. I would like to know why all of these releases are not supporting GUS like the list said. I am beggining to believe that the list is just bs to get people to buy the GUS. This is VERY irritating to think that it is crap, but I would like to know the truth why none of these games are supporting it. And about Comanche...What is this about its own sbos? I bought Comanche and know nothing out this. Ultrabots certainly does not have this either. I expected all of EA aphiliates to at least do something for GUS. And of the Chuck Yeager for GUS? This is listed as shipping. HAS ANYONE SEEN THIS???? I'd like to know where this is shipping! (more BS???) -MS ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 09:50:32 -0400 From: aa344@yfn.ysu.edu (Joseph Maruschek) Subject: Misc GUS thoughts Message-ID: <199304051350.AA09942@yfn.ysu.edu> I'd just like to share some thoughts I have about the GUS. First of all, the problems with SBOS. I really enjoy my GUS, and I think it is step ahead of most of the current crop of sound cards. However, I think that Gravis/Forte made a mistake in emulating the Sound Blaster in software. I don't think that they will ever get SBOS perfect. I feel it can't be done. Why? First of all, FM synthesis is must more flexible than we give it credit for. I see the synthesizer as having two jobs. One is synthesizing, that is, making new sounds. I see this as the primary job of a synthesizer, though most people would disagree. FM synthesis is incredible at making new and unique sounds! Even the basic 11- voice Yamaha chips found in the Adlib and Sound Blaster are capable of a wide array of sounds. Everyone just LOVES those explosions in Wing Commander. They are done using FM. The second job of the synthesizer (which most people think is the only job of a synthesizer) is to re-create sounds of real instruments. FM is just not so good at this job, especially the 2-op version incorporated on the Adlib and Sound Blaster cards. IMHO, no-one knows how to use the 4-op capabilities of the SB Pro and PA cards, so we've yet to hear good 4-op FM synthesis. As Phat mentioned in a previous letter, there is no way you are going to cover every sound the FM synth is going to make with just a limited set of samples. I don't think shows how out-of- date FM synthesis is, but it shows the great flexibility and versatility of FM synthesis. Additionally, simulating the functions of the Sound Blaster DSP in software is risky at best. If Gravis/Forte knew enough about the DSP, why not make a custom IC that would have went on the card? It certainly would have eliminated the endless tweaking of SBOS and the endless complaints. Gravis intended SBOS to be a temporary solution. They underestimated the staying power of the Sound Blaster and the lethargy of the gaming software industry. Speaking of the game industry, I don't find it surprising that GUS support is slow. Games that are coming out right now have been in planning/development for at least a year. I consider it unfair to say that the GUS isn't getting support by looking at the games being released now. The GUS has only been out for a few months, compared to the SB/Adlib which have been around for years. If the situation is the same in the Fall, then I agree that the GUS will have a problem. Supporting the GUS does require a different way of looking at programming the sound card. It much like programming the sound on the Amiga, and we all know that PC programmers have tons of experience programming the Amiga. :-) I feel that if companies can support General MIDI devices, GUS support is just one step away. All of the General MIDI sounds are now available, and all self-respecting GUS owners have them installed on their disk. Programs just have to load the sounds they need onto the card. Is that so hard to do? Any custom instruments will need to be included, but of course, General MIDI devices won't be able to play them! Digitized sound FX need only to be pre-loaded on the GUS and they can be played at any time! No digital mixing required by the program! Why do the game companies have a problem with this? Perhaps the main reason is money. Face it, games just don't sell that well compared to all other types of software. Should a company spend time and money to support a card that will not increase their market share significantly? Dan Nicholson et al didn't have any qualms about it. Will Gravis advertise the GUS? Or have they already done so? What if Gravis decided to build a base of users in a totally different way? Instead of throwing their card out to the fickle public to condone or condemn, why not nurture a group of users who are computer literate, have an interest in great sound, and who recognize the potential of the GUS? Why spend the money on flashy ads when you could spend it on improving the software and distributing it almost instantly by modem and network to these core users. These users, being knowledgeable about computers and sound, probably advise others who are buying or upgrading their systems. Wouldn't the advice of these base users spread far and wide over the networks and BBSs? Has Gravis reached more people without advertising than they would have otherwise? In that case, don't you feel used? :-) Does that make this article just part of their master plan? Maybe I just think too much. :-) Well, if you've read this far, you either are interested in what I have to say or are ready to flame away. Either way, these are just my thoughts, and these electrons will be recycled soon enough. -- aa344 is Joseph Maruschek 3 3 3 3 3 IBM PC SIGop, Youngstown Free-Net D D D D D motto: Strive for the simplest and the best. | | | | | : : : : : ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 93 15:49:37 GMT From: aa344@yfn.ysu.edu (Joseph Maruschek) Subject: Misc GUS thoughts Message-ID: <1pn02h$r4m@news.ysu.edu> ReprintFrom: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard I'd just like to share some thoughts I have about the GUS. First of all, the problems with SBOS. I really enjoy my GUS, and I think it is step ahead of most of the current crop of sound cards. However, I think that Gravis/Forte made a mistake in emulating the Sound Blaster in software. I don't think that they will ever get SBOS perfect. I feel it can't be done. Why? First of all, FM synthesis is must more flexible than we give it credit for. I see the synthesizer as having two jobs. One is synthesizing, that is, making new sounds. I see this as the primary job of a synthesizer, though most people would disagree. FM synthesis is incredible at making new and unique sounds! Even the basic 11- voice Yamaha chips found in the Adlib and Sound Blaster are capable of a wide array of sounds. Everyone just LOVES those explosions in Wing Commander. They are done using FM. The second job of the synthesizer (which most people think is the only job of a synthesizer) is to re-create sounds of real instruments. FM is just not so good at this job, especially the 2-op version incorporated on the Adlib and Sound Blaster cards. IMHO, no-one knows how to use the 4-op capabilities of the SB Pro and PA cards, so we've yet to hear good 4-op FM synthesis. As Phat mentioned in a previous letter, there is no way you are going to cover every sound the FM synth is going to make with just a limited set of samples. I don't think shows how out-of- date FM synthesis is, but it shows the great flexibility and versatility of FM synthesis. Additionally, simulating the functions of the Sound Blaster DSP in software is risky at best. If Gravis/Forte knew enough about the DSP, why not make a custom IC that would have went on the card? It certainly would have eliminated the endless tweaking of SBOS and the endless complaints. Gravis intended SBOS to be a temporary solution. They underestimated the staying power of the Sound Blaster and the lethargy of the gaming software industry. Speaking of the game industry, I don't find it surprising that GUS support is slow. Games that are coming out right now have been in planning/development for at least a year. I consider it unfair to say that the GUS isn't getting support by looking at the games being released now. The GUS has only been out for a few months, compared to the SB/Adlib which have been around for years. If the situation is the same in the Fall, then I agree that the GUS will have a problem. Supporting the GUS does require a different way of looking at programming the sound card. It much like programming the sound on the Amiga, and we all know that PC programmers have tons of experience programming the Amiga. :-) I feel that if companies can support General MIDI devices, GUS support is just one step away. All of the General MIDI sounds are now available, and all self-respecting GUS owners have them installed on their disk. Programs just have to load the sounds they need onto the card. Is that so hard to do? Any custom instruments will need to be included, but of course, General MIDI devices won't be able to play them! Digitized sound FX need only to be pre-loaded on the GUS and they can be played at any time! No digital mixing required by the program! Why do the game companies have a problem with this? Perhaps the main reason is money. Face it, games just don't sell that well compared to all other types of software. Should a company spend time and money to support a card that will not increase their market share significantly? Dan Nicholson et al didn't have any qualms about it. Will Gravis advertise the GUS? Or have they already done so? What if Gravis decided to build a base of users in a totally different way? Instead of throwing their card out to the fickle public to condone or condemn, why not nurture a group of users who are computer literate, have an interest in great sound, and who recognize the potential of the GUS? Why spend the money on flashy ads when you could spend it on improving the software and distributing it almost instantly by modem and network to these core users. These users, being knowledgeable about computers and sound, probably advise others who are buying or upgrading their systems. Wouldn't the advice of these base users spread far and wide over the networks and BBSs? Has Gravis reached more people without advertising than they would have otherwise? In that case, don't you feel used? :-) Does that make this article just part of their master plan? Maybe I just think too much. :-) Well, if you've read this far, you either are interested in what I have to say or are ready to flame away. Either way, these are just my thoughts, and these electrons will be recycled soon enough. -- aa344 is Joseph Maruschek 3 3 3 3 3 IBM PC SIGop, Youngstown Free-Net D D D D D motto: Strive for the simplest and the best. | | | | | : : : : : ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Apr 93 14:53:51 EDT From: n4zfd!frodo@rylos.n2idf.ampr.org (Jim Blakely) Subject: Progman & Setup in Windows Message-ID: A piece of general Windows info: The MS Setup Toolkit, which is what most companies use to create their Windows setup programs neither checks for Program Manager's presence before it starts doing the DDE conversation to create program groups & entries, nor does it provide a means for the programmer to make it do so. The problem w/setup when Program Manager is not your shell is a limitation of the MS utilities, not the company you've bought your software from, in this instance, Gravis. There are workarounds built in to some of the Progman-replacements out there. The best shell, in my opinion, all the way around is HP's Dashboard ... it interprets the DDE requests, and automatically loads Progman to handle them. Other shells blindly ignore the DDE requests, causing SETUP to fail. A workaround if you are using a non-aware shell, is to run Program Manager before you run SETUP. -Jim Blakely, Microsoft Certified Professional Blakely-Signature Associates ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1993 07:30:14 GMT From: JEFF@wench.ece.jcu.edu.au (Jeffrey J Bird) Subject: SBF2.ZIP - Soundblaster programming info (C src included) Message-ID: <9304030730.kp681@tacom-emh1.army.mil> ReprintFrom: comp.archives.msdos.announce I have uploaded to WSMR-SIMTEL20.Army.Mil and OAK.Oakland.Edu: pd1: SBF2.ZIP Soundblaster programming info (C src included) SBF2.ZIP contains C and assembler source code that demonstrates the techniques for programming the Soundblaster family of cards to produce digitised and FM sounds. There is also information on programming the mixer chip on the Soundblaster Pro, and some information on using the MIDI interface. - - Jeff Bird Novell Network Supervisor Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering James Cook University of North Queensland JEFF@wench.ece.jcu.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 18:26:47 -0400 From: Roger Frederi Clark Subject: SBOS and LINKS386 Message-ID: <199304052226.AA01095@bach.udel.edu> I just got Links386 and tried to run it with SBOS 1.43B3, and it crached hard. It appears like it is going to work then my system reboots, gives me a memory error, and a CMOS checksum failure. Anybody know how to fix it? BTW, I have a 486DX50, a 16bit ATI Ultra, and 8megs of ram. Thanks. Roger Clark helios@bach.udel.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 16:46:57 -0400 From: "Frank Pikelner" Subject: Ultima 7 Part 2 and GUS setup Message-ID: <9304052046.AA15998@cs.yorku.ca> Hello everyone, For those gamers out there playing Ultima7 Part 2 SI, I'd love to see your setup CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files. I've tried working with mine and can only seem to load the GUS stuff, and mouse driver. I would love to be able to also load a disk cache, but alas I keep running out of memory. I require about 589k and can only get 572k with all things loaded, any suggestions would help, or maybe can someone post their files config amd autoexec? Thanks in advance, -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- --- Frank Pikelner /~\ \ \ \ Technical Assistant, Department of Computer Science \- \-- York University (Toronto, Canada) '\^/; \ \ Internet: frank@cs.yorku.ca _{!}_ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 13:31:28 CDT From: Michael J Stumpf Subject: ultima ;7 stutter Message-ID: <9304051831.AA28343@tamsun.tamu.edu> Using the newest 2.04 version of SBOS, I get stutter with my version of Ulimta (sp) Ultima 7. Is that what the fix on epas is for, or what? The speech functions, but occasionally (I speculate due to a malfunction in the new double buffering) I get a blurb. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 1:03:14 PDT From: Vincent Poy Subject: Re: Ultrasound Daily Digest V3 #5 Message-ID: <9304050803.AA22624@nic.cerf.net> > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 00:05:39 -0500 (EDT) > From: dionf@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Francois Dion) > Subject: Various sound formats - READ THE FAQ > Message-ID: <9304050405.AA26698@brise.ERE.UMontreal.CA> > > >From: Vincent Poy > >Subject: Sound File Support > > > I was wondering if someone can point me out to some utilities for > >the GUS to play things (sound files) besides, MIDI, MOD, SND, WAV > >files since I know there are more than that which I've seen on BBS's > >that have stuff like the CMF and ROL stuff but how would I be able to > >play those? atleast what the SB/Adlib boards can play for Music files... > > .CMF and .ROL are music files, not sound files, like .MID and .MOD. for these > you need a music player specific to each. All are on epas. > > .SND, .WAV, .VOC, .AIFF, .IFF, raw 8 bit/16 bit, signed/unsigned etc... are > all sound files and can be converted one to another by using SOX, also on > epas. Once you have a .wav or raw file (.snd, .sb, .ub, .sw, .uw etc...) you > can play it with playfile. > > Ciao, > -- > Francois Dion > ' _ _ _ > CISM (_) (_) _) FM Montreal , Canada Email: CISM@ERE.UMontreal.CA > (_) / . _) 10000 Watts Telephone no: (514) 343-7511 > _______________________________________________________________________________ > Audio-C-DJ-Fractals-Future-Label-Multimedia-Music-Radio-Rave-Video-VR-Volvo-... > What about this MIDI file of Always Waiting for You by Richard Marx, The files are: CONTENTS.TBL, RICHARDM0.TBL, RIGHTHE0.SNG ANd it says it's in Ballade Format, How do I use those? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Apr 93 17:23:40 PDT From: Vincent Poy Subject: Re: Ultrasound Daily Digest V3 #5 Message-ID: <9304060023.AA09169@nic.cerf.net> I have another question on the GUS in it's own mode. Like in Zone66, How do I control the level of the volume? it's just too soft and not as loud as the SB Emulated sounds... ------------------------------ Date: 4 Apr 1993 20:06:13 GMT From: twong@civil.ubc.ca (Thomas Wong) Subject: Ultrasound FTP Sites - New files validated - Apr 3, 93 Message-ID: <1pnf3lINN4gc@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> ReprintFrom: comp.sys.ibm.pc.soundcard GRAVIS ULTRASOUND FTP SITES NEWS ========================================================================== Ftp Site: archive.epas.utoronto.ca Directory: pub/pc/ultrasound wuarchive.wustl.edu systems/msdos/ultrasound ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are the files validated today, April 3, 1993.... Both ftp sites have been updated... Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/sound/669/files onourway.arj, orngemen.arj Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/midi/files ap_music.zip, marcii.zip, popcorn.lzh, rumba.zip Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/midi/util miditest.zip - MIDITEST displays GUS midi stream mmadp36.lzh - MIDI MadHouse recorder/player for midi syntheziers Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/patches/files calliope.zip Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/patches/util patinf11.zip - PATINFO displays GUS patch info Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/voc/util gblast.zip - GBLAST VOC player for the Ultrasound. Will dump whole song to GUS ram so that program exists and you can do something else while whole song slows plays on GUS Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/mod/util jmprotr.arj - JMPROTR module & oktalyzer player for GUS (also can be TSR) Subdirectory: ..../ultrasound/game sc2mods3.arj - Program extracts MOD files from Star Controll II u7gus.zip - Fix for playing Ultima 7 on Ultrasound Well, that's it. Enjoy all! REQUEST: ======== One request though. I noticed that there are a number of utils and other files on the Gravis BBS that's not on our ftp archives. So for all the locals (local to BBS so no long distance charge), if you can get on and grab the files, then upload them to EPAS, I'm sure we would all be very appreciative. I was going to do it when I got on but ran out of time. Or if John Smith is reading this, perhaps you can upload them to the ftp site, archive.epas.utoronto.ca. There are files such as Star Control II demo, and utilities that I'm sure others would love to get their hands on but don't want to call long distance to a BBS that they can't get on. Thanks in advance! Thomas. ------------------------------ End of Ultrasound Daily Digest V3 #6 ************************************